Some Interesting Lionel Items

[early0electric]

It's interesting that so many were / are painted one color on the inside and another on the outside. Just another mystery lost to the past.

[Terry]

I think the most common factory repaints are 154 locos in dark green over light olive. Seems to be that most of the original colors are lighter colors. Maybe the first color didn't cover well so they were overpainted?

Maybe the lettering was done so wrong it was rejected. You can wipe the lettering off for a short time after it is applied. After that time it would smear and ruin the shell.

[early0electric]

We'll never know.

[starfire700]

Wasn't it a common practice for Lionel to repaint locos that were returned for service or warranty issues.....thought that I heard that somewhere.

[Terry]

I heard that many times but don't think it's correct. I've done many repaints, and it's too much work to spiff up a train as an extra.

I have a Lionel Service order form that listed painting as an option. I have it around here somewhere, but don't know where. From late 1920s it says painting will be done when the color selected is used so there may be a delay.

[early0electric]

They did repaint but there seems to be too many loco's out there with a different inside color for them all to be factory service - repair repaints.

[starfire700]

And it seems especially odd that so many are Mojave inside / original color.

[early0electric]

Maybe they got a discount on the paint!

[Pre-WarGuy]

I wish the reply could be with the photo that I wish to send a comment about.  A reply seems to only be available at the end of the posting page.  Who knows to what the reply is sent about???  And being too old for my britches, I cannot remember all of the info that I wish to reply to; like car numbers and series...

But here is my reply anyway:

I like the two green passenger cars.  One with New York Central without gold line, and the car next to it without NYC but with the gold line.  An interesting pair to picture together.

There certainly are many interesting cars mentioned in the postings.
Thanks!

[starfire700]

As collectors we tend to make a science out of variations, I myself am guilty of that too. But also as a manufacturer (of Marx Trains) I understand that a variation can be the result of many production-related and customer-related influences such as:
A different woman was on the painting station that day
A department store requested a variation, and the variation was over-run
A certain part ran-out and the line had to keep going, so a substitution was made
Too many items were painted in a certain color, so they need to be repainted in the color of sets we are making to fill a current order
or my favorite......"We are just making toys, so get them assembled and out the door".
Don't get me wrong, my collection contains many difficult or unusual variations. Concentration on variations has helped me limit the amount of trains that I have, but I still have too much.
There is plenty of room for both science and just plain fun in collecting.
I think that Ward Kimball may have been telling us to keep it fun, with some of his TTOS Bulletin cover designs........

[early0electric]

Good post, Jim. I know what you mean. Variations can drive you nuts. Just about everything in early Prewar Lionel is a variation. I think I've got a dozen different 800's, 801's, 820's, & 901's.  Then there's the 700 series loco's - gold vents, not gold vents, cast iron wheels, die cast wheels, LL's, Mfg plate, pedestal headlight, and on and on. Sometimes you just have to step back and enjoy them for what they are, Toys.

[starfire700]

You have seen more early Lionel than I, but this period production was done to less-specific specifications than later production. Different workers on the line and over-runs or under-runs of certain parts and finishes required certain liberties to keep the line moving, and fill orders. Demand was influenced by the economy, season of the year and of course WWI, making it difficult to estimate demand.
You may be able to tell that most of my professional career was involved in retail.
I have heard it said that at American Flyer, day-workers were hired off the street. It makes a lot of sense when you try to add up all the trim variations on 1930's wide gauge freight cars.
But as you confirmed, we need to step-back and realize trains were just factory-produced toys, produced by workers who had no idea that their work would be studied like a science one day.
Collecting and chasing items on my "must have list" for over 45 years, also makes me think now that having fun with and sharing info about trains is more fun than the pursuit.
Back in the 80's when Ward Kimball was doing the TTOS covers, I thought that he was just a crazy, rich old man. He was that, but was also having a heck of a lot of fun.

[Terry]

For me the pursuit of variations is about learning.  I'm looking for trains that fit the chronology.   An example is the 33 locos with and without binding posts. Based on the locos I had, there should be a black one with 4 or 6 cast wheels and no binding post.  It took me a few months,  but I found one.  Then I started looking at the end of production for locos without binding posts or holes, and found one.

That's why I like the common 33 and 38 locos. I laid them out in what I think is the order of production, and then went seeking variations that should exist.

In the past few months I bought a black 33 without a binding post from 1913, and a dark olive 33 with block lettering from 1912. One was 10 times as much money as the other, but both were just as exciting. The cheap one might have even been more fun because it proved something I'd thought, rather than just being another known variation I was seeking.

I consider the above items production variations.  Changes made by design. Usually these are done to lower costs, but sometimes it's done for improvement. Adding binding posts is an example of a change done to improve sales.  Changing O gauge couplers from rivet to tab mounting is lowering costs.

One thing I quickly learned was Lionel was not into FIFO for some parts. That's "First In First Out." For example the reverse units introduced in about 1912 have a plate that says Lionel MFG on it. In 1918 this was changed to Lionel CORP. The MFG plates are found on trains as late as 1925.

I don't consider the reverse plate lettering a variation, or valid for dating purposes. 

Speaking of Ward Kimball's TTOS covers. The covers represented the TTOS theme.

The TTOS group was started to mock the TCA.  How else can you explain articles in the bulletin about how to kill garden slugs with trains?

The TCA were "serious folks" who had trains on shelves and counted rivets. TCA members dressed and acted like George Clooney. TTOS members were drunkards and simpletons like a Steve Martin character who had demolition derbies and contests to see who could do the worst job of repainting a train.

TTOS wanted to be the FUN people. The big annual TTOS meets had free booze. The only time I ever saw free booze at a TCA meet was the Valley Forge Convention when the hotel gave us booze and snacks while they found us rooms because the convention hotel had an event that went over and the rooms weren't available.

[early0electric]

The discovery and sharing of interesting items is always paramount. I love hearing about obscure & odd-ball production pieces that don't fit any reasoning. Perhaps like my 706 with a strap headlight and Corporation motor and my 154 with cast iron wheels and a Corporation motor Both are probably just using left over parts to get something "Out the door". They weren't making collectibles, they were making money.
 

 

[Terry]

The 154 is neat, but the 706 just blows it away.

That is wonderful.