Interesting Auction Items

[early0electric]

Here's an elusive Outfit 162 in Orange albeit in poor condition.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/125690291464

[starfire700]

The loco is not terrible, but the cars are beyond poor.  Happy New Year to all!

[Terry]

I looked at the painted jurnals on that 152 for a while.

Here's a set of interest:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/155338084657

It's a 156 loco and 3 cars. Loco has riveted couplers, but all other features are later period. The 610/612 cars have blue windows and no corp stamps.

I have a 156 and 156X with riveted couplers and pedestal light, but not this version.

You can see this has been worked on by looking at the wires, and I'd rather save my money for the spring auction season. 

[starfire700]

Interesting 156 set, but already too much $$ for the condition.

[early0electric]

Terry,
The 156(X) appeared in 1922. Rivet couplers were no doubt long gone by then. I suggest you have a 156 with the pilot trucks missing.

[Terry]

There are no signs this ever had pony trucks. I think I have a 156X loco that was put together from parts in the mid 1920s. I've seen others over the years with the same features.  The type five motor shows up in many weird locos.

156Xa1 Dark green, type 5 motor with brush tubes, black fiber with corp plate, diecast wheels with spokes, riveted couplers, pedestal headlight. No pilot trucks or hangers. This loco may have been assembled from spare parts in late 1920s?

 

[starfire700]

I think we can all agree that variations of the 150 series (across the board) resulted from the factory using earlier parts on later locos, and some cases from outright mistakes, such as wrong number stamps. Age, has unfortunately complicated the issue, as previous owners have swapped parts in some cases over the span of 100 years. If you do your due-diligence as Terry has done, you can rule-out post-production modifications and verify a true original variation. Originality is hard to fake, as you can't erase damage from trucks rubbing on the frame, paint-loss when screws are removed and brittle wiring that falls apart when a motor is removed.   

[early0electric]

It's strange the things that do turn up with no rhyme or reason. I have a few in my collection. As you say, you can build a case with the right factors.

[Terry]

People say "they were making toys."

The weird 156 is this one:

 

156a1 Dark green, type 2 motor, black fiber plate with manufacturing plate, diecast wheels with simulated spokes, riveted couplers, pedestal headlight, holes in diecast wheels, no weights on pony trucks.

I've never seen a 703 with gold vents, but here's a 156 with them. With the exception of the pony wheels and the gold vents, this is the same as my 703. The number and the wheels means it was made later than the 703. The number can't be changed.

I could come up with a few different guesses about why this was made, but all would just be guesses.  The only fact I can say is this was made AFTER the 703 locos. Date wise, I think it's no earlier than 1917 when the number change was made.

Here's a fun fact - Lionel made trains in Newark from 1913-16. In 1916 they moved to Irvington. 1916 is one of the years in standard gauge where a lot of odd items were made. Coincidence?

For the later mid 20s oddities like the 156X above,  Lionel kept portions of  Newark plant for use as storage into the mid 1920s when the Irvington plant was expanded. Coincidence?

[starfire700]

Exactly, they were just making toys. As collectors we sometimes loose sight of that and always expect a logical reason for variations. Great example is the variety of trim and plate combinations on American Flyer 1930's wide gauge freight cars. The logical reason for this is that AF hired "day workers" to do assemblies. With little or no training they applied whatever plates or trim that was available.
Making Marx Trains in the 1990's and early 2000's, though we did not employ day workers, we did substitute parts when necessary to fulfill a product run. Ok, as a collector, I did embrace the idea of making variations, but the main reason was to get the product "out the door". 

[Terry]

A big advantage of the variations is they give us collectors a reason to keep more trains. They also keep us interested.

[early0electric]

That's the Joy and the Bane of collecting!

[starfire700]

Many years ago a writer said in "Antique Toy World" magazine ....."the fun is in the search". It is what keeps us going.

[Terry]

Stout has Clem Clement's trains up for auction later this month. Clem was into weird homemade and short run trains - mostly standard gauge, but there's  some interesting trains in other gauges.
He also has some nice Transition stuff. It's worth spending some time looking.

Here's a few lots with interesting stuff that Stout isn't calling out:

517 caboose with 4 LL plates and number on bottom:

 

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/lionel-prewar-standard-gauge-512-gondola-520-sear-74d435690d

Note that the 520 floodlight car in the 517 caboose lot may be a terra cotta base overpainted in a slightly darker shade of 45n green. There's a boxed 212 in the darker shade of green in another listing.


Odd sheet brass representation of the big hopper I have. Clem saw mine at the TCA convention in 2009.

 

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/three-custom-plated-standard-gauge-freight-cars-1066-c-9434146b97?objectID=177396295&algIndex=upcoming_lots_lotNumber_asc_prod&queryID=72b37aa49b7a29040074d16ec86a0f2c

Late bright red 217 caboose with brass plates. One of the rarest 200 series freight cars. There's also a 217 in red/peacock with a peacock capula in another listing.

 

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/lionel-prewar-standard-gauge-216-hopper-220-searc-3eb41b3930

Here's the whole listing:

https://www.invaluable.com/catalog/8qjvzqh3u0?page=1&size=192

I find it interesting to look at the handmade bastards and try to figure out what they started life as. In Antique Furniture a "Bastard" is a peice that was made from the remains of other peices. I see one of the steam locos started as a C&F powered unit, and many of the interurbans were Lionel Passenger cars.
 

[Terry]

Stout just uploaded an April 2023 auction of Very Early Toy Trains - Howard, Voltamp, Marklin, Knapp and more.

The Lionel is crap, but the other trains are fantastic. If I had deep pockets I'd be after a bunch of those trains.  Well worth a few minutes.

https://www.invaluable.com/catalog/4esjqy5hzs?page=1&size=48


Here's something I like:

 

 

Knapp electric auto. It looks like it would connect to a pair of wires on one side and then run in circles around the battery

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/early-and-larger-knapp-electric-automobile-808-c-51b476683d?objectID=177831616&algIndex=upcoming_lots_lotNumber_asc_prod&queryID=ec5bc19c6438c8549208f5d314942bb9

Here's an IVES Brute - check out the three motors:

 

 

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/gorgeous-and-incredible-ives-articulated-locomoti-807-c-15949a1a3d?objectID=177831626&algIndex=upcoming_lots_lotNumber_asc_prod&queryID=e0a3590a976c4ef1eb7e6c06578150a8